Just a day after his election, new Presbyterian Church Moderator sparks row by telling gay people to stop having sex
The new leader of the largest Protestant denomination in Northern Ireland has angered the gay community just a day after his election by saying they should stay celibate.
Rev Dr Michael Barry (63) takes charge of the Presbyterian Church in June following his election as Moderator earlier on Tuesday.
But his belief that homosexual men and women should not have sex has sparked outrage in the gay community.
"We welcome all people into the Church, but we would have a problem with those who are involved in a gay relationship because we believe the Bible teaches that is against the word of God," he said.
"We would encourage people who are gay to live a celibate life."
Rev Barry described advertised gay conversion courses as a "very difficult situation".
"Personally, I am not convinced that that is possible," he said.
"I think the whole origin of where gayness comes from is still up for debate and I would be a bit concerned at being dogmatic one way or the other.
"Certainly we'd want to help people who are having difficulties with their sexuality to live in such a way that is honouring to God."
Director of the Rainbow Project John O'Doherty said he was disappointed by Rev Barry's views.
"Once again we have senior religious figure in Northern Ireland refusing to accept the difference between sex and sexual orientation," he said. "While it may be easier for those people who oppose same-sex attracted people to view us simply as sexual beings, The Rainbow Project recognises the importance of the physical, emotional and sexual attractions that exist in relationships.
"We believe that understanding our sexuality and promoting openness in our relationships leads to better sex lives, better health and wellbeing and better relationships".
One of Northern Ireland's few openly gay political representatives said Rev Barry is entitled to his views.
"It is important to recognise other differing views," said Alliance councillor Andrew Muir.
"LGBT people should be included in NI society as equal, valued citizens." Dr Barry succeeds Dr Rob Craig on June 2.
PROFILE
New Presbyterian Moderator Rev Dr Michael Barry (63) is originally from Carrickfergus and worked as a maths teacher before deciding aged 28 to follow his heart and become a minister. He has served the congregation at Sandys Street Presbyterian Church in Newry for the last 29 years.
He is married to Esther and they have two grown-up daughters. The Manchester United fan lists as his hobbies singing in an eight-man choir, playing golf and watching sport on TV.
When I started to openly question religion for the first time, someone made this point to me : Are you questioning it because you are really beginning to believe that there is not a God, or is it because religious people themselves have alienated you through their own stubborn and total faith in things which make no sense?
The truth is that it was the latter. Christians will go to great lengths to tell us how much God loves us, and how he has shown that love to us. Yet the scripture which they base that faith on is built on intolerance, wrath and vengeance. This God who loves us all adds the caveat that we must in turn love him, believe in him and honour him. Why would any eternally existing force of such immense power and intelligence demand something which is so selfish? What is great about demanding that others praise you?
Why does this God who loves us so much have so much anger towards two men who love each other when all sensible people can see that it is harmless? Why does God make us so ashamed of our sexuality, to the point where people are embarrassed and ashamed to open up about the thing which forms the basis of so much of our behaviour? The fact that God created us, and therefore bestowed hormones on us, makes it all seem like a bit of a sick practical joke by this God of love.
And some Christians will either rush to tell me that I must simply accept scripture despite its manifest lunacy, and others will tell me how wrong I have got it ... that when God says we should kill gay people he actually did not mean it . .
The truth is that it was the latter. Christians will go to great lengths to tell us how much God loves us, and how he has shown that love to us. Yet the scripture which they base that faith on is built on intolerance, wrath and vengeance. This God who loves us all adds the caveat that we must in turn love him, believe in him and honour him. Why would any eternally existing force of such immense power and intelligence demand something which is so selfish? What is great about demanding that others praise you?
Why does this God who loves us so much have so much anger towards two men who love each other when all sensible people can see that it is harmless? Why does God make us so ashamed of our sexuality, to the point where people are embarrassed and ashamed to open up about the thing which forms the basis of so much of our behaviour? The fact that God created us, and therefore bestowed hormones on us, makes it all seem like a bit of a sick practical joke by this God of love.
And some Christians will either rush to tell me that I must simply accept scripture despite its manifest lunacy, and others will tell me how wrong I have got it ... that when God says we should kill gay people he actually did not mean it . .
to add to my previous comment earlier - do these anti-gay fundamentalists really believe that only gay people are having anal sex and other ungodly sexual activities? Honestly, they should be asking most of the straight people I know to go celibate!
*rolls eyes*
*rolls eyes*
Get real. His job is to preach what Christianity teaches. IT'S HIS JOB !!!
It could be worse. He could be an RC priest saying one thing and promoting another.
It only matters if you believe the story of a big alien in the sky anyway.
It could be worse. He could be an RC priest saying one thing and promoting another.
It only matters if you believe the story of a big alien in the sky anyway.
Tell them to stop eating shellfish too. Apparently that's just as horrific to G_d.
There is no need to comment on the antics of gay people any more than commenting upon people who believe Elvis is still alive.
Neither of these groups affect how this man and his community live their own lives so he should keep his mouth shut and go about his business.
He is the elected leader of a minority religion and of course he speaks for the members of his church, but he does not speak for non members and given the number of non members far outweighs the number of members he represents, he should just remain quiet.
Neither of these groups affect how this man and his community live their own lives so he should keep his mouth shut and go about his business.
He is the elected leader of a minority religion and of course he speaks for the members of his church, but he does not speak for non members and given the number of non members far outweighs the number of members he represents, he should just remain quiet.
Why are so many religious people so concerned with anal sex?
Times like these I'm proud to be Atheist!
gay people suffer, including death, because of people like mr barry, shame on you, you religious control freak cult worshipper. laws were made by man not god.
dosnt he know the 11th commandment reads, don't knock it till you've tried it.
dosnt he know the 11th commandment reads, don't knock it till you've tried it.
Brilliant! Keep it up, guys, please! I'm so relieved you've rediscovered your stupid streak. Don't forget the Earth is Flat - don't believe all this Papist nonsense about it being a big round ball. If it's a big round ball the Bible would have said so, wouldn't it?
Why single out gay people? Doesn't God forbid all sex outside of marriage?
So the next Moderator can only read as far as the first part of verse 7 of First Corinthians 7. If he reads the rest of the verse he will see that even Paul says that not everyone has the gift. I'm sure that Mrs Berry is evidence that he himself does not have the gift he is saying that all LGBT Presbyterians must possess.
However, I have one question for him. In verse nine after Paul talks about celibacy he goes on to say:
"But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
therefore why is so opposed to gay people finding the right person for them, to be able to love them and not burn with the passion that Paul warns us is actually worse than trying to remain celibate when we don't have the gift?
However, I have one question for him. In verse nine after Paul talks about celibacy he goes on to say:
"But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
therefore why is so opposed to gay people finding the right person for them, to be able to love them and not burn with the passion that Paul warns us is actually worse than trying to remain celibate when we don't have the gift?
I don’t know why so many people almost seem to delight in getting annoyed at various churches position on things.
If you think they are basically frauds, believing in madness, why be bothered about what they think?
Many christians clearly think the bible says homosexual acts are sinful and not good for people, thus they think people shouldn’t do them.
Many of the people who profess to be very liberal seem to be the most agitated when someone does not hold their views on subjects like this.
Let people get on with whatever they want to get on with.
If you think they are basically frauds, believing in madness, why be bothered about what they think?
Many christians clearly think the bible says homosexual acts are sinful and not good for people, thus they think people shouldn’t do them.
Many of the people who profess to be very liberal seem to be the most agitated when someone does not hold their views on subjects like this.
Let people get on with whatever they want to get on with.
How sad. A new moderator makes his first comments. What does he choose to speak about?
social injustices? sectarianism? the plight of the poor and marginalised?
No, no, no these are not the subjects uppermost in the mind of Rev Barry.
He chooses to talk about gay people. And to tell them to stop being bad.
What a disappointment.
What an opportunity missed.
What would Jesus do?
social injustices? sectarianism? the plight of the poor and marginalised?
No, no, no these are not the subjects uppermost in the mind of Rev Barry.
He chooses to talk about gay people. And to tell them to stop being bad.
What a disappointment.
What an opportunity missed.
What would Jesus do?
God never said a word about homosexuality, Jesus most certainly did not - only some obscure individual called Leviticus and even that was his main claim to fame. God gave them their sexuality and the bits and pieces to use accordingly - blame God then!
After watching dispatches yesterday it felt rather challenging not to puke , though i would like to be seen as a person for my achievements , how sad it is that anything i do is over shadowed by whom i love . I am supposedly a pervert which is strange considering i have been in one relationship that i am still in , i am perverted for sleeping with him as he doesn't seem to mind lol . Anyway the pedophilia thing is such a strange association considering they prey on the weakest of humanity which are children , and gay people are attracted to the strongest which are Men, so men are un - consensual prey and i as one must be a victim of my loved one lol . i must say i don't feel violated at all in fact i consented to it and yet it had no ripple effect and no one was hurt . So what is the underlying problem here , it is so strange to concentrate on what 2 people do legally . Priorities are what is needed here and to those whom see it as a choice , do you think those poor people in Russia choose to be the prey of the true perverted bigots whom made them put bottles in there genital regions . Our world is destroyed and believe me it is not by gays .
Yea, religion is to blame. That rabid fundamentalist religious nut Vladimir Putin is certainly very open to homosexuality.
The church have a creepy interest in other peoples sex lives. It's ironic these people in high and mighty positions are not intelligent nor educated enough to realise that people are gay because of their biological makeup, it's not something they just decided on a whim, and that so-called gay conversion courses would cause more harm than good. Maybe it's the moderator who needs a conversion course.
Great so we know where this cleric stands on 'gay sex' (disappointing of course but no great surprise) and that he won't be attending a Catholic service in a Catholic place of worship (disappointing of course but no great surprise) but what we DON'T know is how he plans to demonstrate leadership on the much more pressing issues of unemployment, reduced hospital beds, education, stagnant wages, the widening gap between the very rich and the poor, (I think Jesus addressed this issue head on) and all the other things that get ignored while folk obsess over who does what with whom in consensual adult relationships.
One would think this world has a few more problems more deserving of his and the Church's attention than people loving each other.
One would think this world has a few more problems more deserving of his and the Church's attention than people loving each other.
Well one thing all these christian church people have in common is that they are all obsessed with sex.
I never thought about the order that way but good point.
A group of men young and old, who take great pleasure in each others company, who enjoy dressing up in brightly coloured bunting and enjoy going on long walks together every summer as they sing songs to each other as they walk.
I guess they call this male bonding.
A group of men young and old, who take great pleasure in each others company, who enjoy dressing up in brightly coloured bunting and enjoy going on long walks together every summer as they sing songs to each other as they walk.
I guess they call this male bonding.
And why was he discussing that topic? Who raised this topic? (a genuine question, as I wouldn't be surprised if he only spoke on this issue after an obsessed journalist from this paper raised it.)
Other than that, it's just another pathetic headline from this paper. NEWS HEADLINES: Christian leader believes what Christians believe!!! In other news the Pope is Catholic!
Other than that, it's just another pathetic headline from this paper. NEWS HEADLINES: Christian leader believes what Christians believe!!! In other news the Pope is Catholic!
His first day in the job and already he's got himself stuck in a big hole...!
Many in the pews hear from the pulpit but it just goes out the other ear on sex as well as other matters. Are they in the pews for show & tell or the person at the pulpit?
this is just one of the many signs that we are all in serious trouble. take heed, times running out.
If the religious want gay people to stop having sex why not let them get married? That generally does the trick.
"We would encourage people who are gay to live a celibate life."
Give me strength... *shakes head in disbelief*
Give me strength... *shakes head in disbelief*
If the religious want gay people to stop having sex why not let them get married? That generally does the trick.
Well, doesn't that just take the biscuit. hypocrisy from the first breath to the last.
Using religious language to promote an agenda.
The Onanist Order and most specifically George Chittick ought to protest against this and warn people of what is going on here. Not that religious language learning is wrong as such, but when it has been used to promote an agenda then something must be done.
BIt of fleg waving and opportune and judicious faux ballax and talk in tongues briefly should do the trick.
Using religious language to promote an agenda.
The Onanist Order and most specifically George Chittick ought to protest against this and warn people of what is going on here. Not that religious language learning is wrong as such, but when it has been used to promote an agenda then something must be done.
BIt of fleg waving and opportune and judicious faux ballax and talk in tongues briefly should do the trick.
Ha - He's just another mad religious fruit-cake revealing the credentials that guarantee entry into the kingdom of lunny-tune land. Stick to the goat slaughtering, or actually leave the goats alone, and stick to learning that one plus one equals two does not always mean that F+M = 2; there is equal validity in M+M = 2 and F+F = 2. For all I care, F+M+M = 3 and F+F+M =3 etc etc. It's simply no one's business once the legal age of consent has been reached.
Archeology Shows Bible Written Late, Full of Errors
By Juan Cole February 06, 2014 "Information Clearing House - A new paper by Israeli archeologies Lidar Sapir-Hen and Erez Ben-Yosef, [pdf] posted at the University of Tel Aviv web site , is bad news for biblical literalists and far right wing Israeli nationalists who use the Bible for support.
By Juan Cole February 06, 2014 "Information Clearing House - A new paper by Israeli archeologies Lidar Sapir-Hen and Erez Ben-Yosef, [pdf] posted at the University of Tel Aviv web site , is bad news for biblical literalists and far right wing Israeli nationalists who use the Bible for support.
The Hebrew Bible’s oldest chapters– Genesis, Exodus, and even Judges purport to discuss events thousands of years ago. The custom in Western biblical scholarship is to date Abraham to e.g. 2000 B.C. This dating is based on nothing more than counting generations (“begats”) backward and assigning an arbitrary number of years to each generation. In fact, Genesis is replete with myths and assertions of people living hundreds of years, and was only historicized in this way by 19th century positivists.
But here is proof that the Bible was written late and projects later developments into the distant past: it alleges that people had domesticated camels four millennia ago in what is now Israel. And that assertion, folks, is simply not true. That is the finding of Sapir-Hen and Ben-Yosef.
E.g. Genesis 24: 64 says, “Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac she dismounted from the camel.” If this encounter happened circa 2026 BC, it was happening a thousand years before anyone was riding camels.
The archeologists’ digs near the Jordanian border find evidence of domesticated camels sort of 930-900 BC. But they don’t find that evidence in any settlements older than 930 BC. There is a pretty clear dividing line between the pre-domestic camel and post- domestic camel settlements.
Although it was likely based on previous oral tales, the Bible probably wasn’t written down in something like its present form until the Babylonian exile, 586-539 B.C. When those scribes reworked the folk tales of the Canaanites, they projected sixth-century BC realities back into the past. Thus, they had characters riding camels before they were domesticated. Riding a camel was taken for granted in 580 BC.
You might think this point is a minor one. But it demonstrates how the scribes worked. They projected recent things into the distant past.
The archeological evidence shows that not only weren’t people riding camels in the Levant when the Bible says they were, David and Solomon didn’t have a huge palace in Jerusalem in the 1000s and 900s BC. The Assyrians, the gossips of the ancient world, wrote down everything on their clay tablets. They knew events in the whole Middle East. They did not know anything about a glorious kingdom of David and Solomon at Jerusalem. Indeed, in the 1000s when David is alleged to have lived, Jerusalem seems to have been largely uninhabited, according to the digs that have been done. Jerusalem was not in any case founded by Jews, but by Canaanites in honor of the god Shalem, thousands of years ago. There is no reason to think anyone but Canaanites lived in the area of Jerusalem in the 1000s or 900s BC. Likely some Canaanites became devoted to Y*H*W*H in a monotheistic way during the Babylonian exile when they beganinventing Judaism and becoming “Jews” and projecting it back into the distant past.
In short, those far right wing Israelis who use the bible stories as a basis for kicking Palestinians out of their homes in East Jerusalem are making many mistakes, including historical ones, as well as human rights mistakes.
Juan Cole is Richard P. Mitchell Collegiate Professor of History at the University of Michigan. www.juancole.com
The Invention of the Land of Israel - book launch with Shlomo Sand
Well he is right about homosexuality. So believers can see that those who support homosexuality would be disappointed with the views God's love for homosexual.Con these principles are rejecting the Bible, therefore God. So his statements lead us to a gay world and the Bible says that we must fight against homosexual feelings, which are inherent to all by God to be the same, since we have a choice, the Bible says that is what we will happen if we choose to be enemies of God, ie that it is not homosexuality, but a whole theological philosophy that brings man to death. Moreover, it seems that the priest has expensive tastes, because he likes the Golf and expensive sports, not only God disapproves of homosexuality, also Golf, sport being idle rich people, while there is no need in the world , like the expensive world of sports, where athletes and their clubs are full of money, while educators, doctors, nurses, police, starving and are exploited at work, and there are children, elderly or dead disabled hungry and full of basic needs in the world, which God does not approve, and for which the Holy Bible is also opposed, so if we are opposed to homosexuality, we can not be in favor of wealth and social injustices, since God is one, so the priest Barry seems to have two faces.
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