Research & Surveys are no substitute for experience. Mature adults realize that sex is for two purposes, procreation or fun and in this instance fun, that is not to be taken seriously. All activity, of more than one person, involves role play to a lesser or greater degree. I have used business ladies all over western Europe and Asia for decades and so has my wife and it cost us a fortune but we had a fantastic time. The business ladies also used us and it cost an absolute fortune but it was absolutely fantastic. Actually surveys conducted in Europe found, that this business legalized, actually lowered domestic violence considerably.
In both Canada and Europe, after proper research, they found that the business women involved, felt much safer when it was legalized and conducted in a transparent manner. Like certain militant feminists, yes there is a certain percentage of men, who have sadistic traits but so have women too. I'm sure the article must have some valid points but I can't find them, and using modern pseudo, pretentious terms, like misogynistic, neither makes it an intelligent article or anything remotely related, to the real world of this ancient profession. Rock on! Sisters of Mercy! Long may your business thrive and to hell with the begrudgers, fascists and puritans. Marriage as most people will agree is also to a large extent a business with the same dynamics. Get out there and live lady and get some real experience, before you start interfering in this ancient art form and business! The article is a good example, of a little knowledge, being a very dangerous thing, that tries to sanitize the gift, of the often messy human condition and the wonderful gift of Life.
Does prostitution demean, degrade and dehumanise the buyers of sex?
Opinion: ‘In the debate about the criminalisation of the purchase of sex, it is an overlooked issue’
‘The 10 per cent of Irish men who buy sex are under the illusion that there is mutual pleasure in the expensive sexual release they’ve booked online with a woman’ Photograph: Getty Images
Kate Holmquist
Topics:
News
Social Affairs
Ireland
Tue, Nov 11, 2014, 16:20
First published:Tue, Nov 11, 2014, 08:06
Almost to a man, the more than 20 punters I’ve interviewed over the years about purchasing sex have been convinced that “She enjoys it”. And she especially enjoys sex with him, thinks he’s a good lover, appreciates him as a human being, likes his company and even spends extra time with him for her own pleasure, not just because he’s paying her. She loves her work, she really does, and it’s her choice to do it.
“How do you know she enjoys it?” I’ve asked.
“I think I could tell if she didn’t,” they say
Can’t they see she’s acting? Pretending to like it is her survival mode. She’s not feeling a thing – especially not for them.
She’s a good actress because she has to be, maybe has been coerced to be. The 10 per cent of Irish men who buy sex are under the illusion that there is mutual pleasure in the expensive sexual release they’ve booked online with a woman who talks dirty as she makes them shower and checks them out for sexually transmitted diseases. Whether he’s met her in a bar in Asia or hotel in rural Ireland, she’s put on such a good show that he, on some level, believed her.
Sex buyers, are you really OK with that? You don’t think it’s the slightest bit degrading? For you, I mean.
In the debate for and against the criminalisation of the purchase of sex, an overlooked issue is whether prostitution demeans, degrades and dehumanises the buyers. Paying for sex allows men to live the fantasy that some women – women who they pay – get hot when they meet misogynists who can’t be bothered doing the hard psychological work of forming an equal, intimate relationship with a woman – at least not tonight.
That’s what so many men have told me: that women in “real” life can be difficult, demanding, impossible to satisfy, they take up too much of their valuable time. When these men are working all hours, there’s no time for labour-intensive “dating” – not even a quickie via Tinder. Picking up drunk women at closing time? Ok for some, but others feel better with a cash transaction.
Most punters are in relationships, married even. It’s just that prostitution is a different kind of sex – guilt-free and selfish without having to worry about how the woman feels or what it will cost to take her to dinner once or twice with no sex to show for it.
I’ve asked punters the same three questions: would you tell your fiancée or your mother that you’ve paid for sex; would you want your mother, sister or daughter to sell their bodies; and would you consider dating a prostitute and marrying her? The answer has always been no, no and no. See the disconnect?
Why do these men choose to disconnect their emotions from their bodies – just as prostitutes do – for the sake of a fleeting thrill? It’s not really good for men’s sexuality to become habituated to the instant gratification that prostitutes are adept at because they want to make the physical interaction as brief as possible. It isn’t terrific for male performance in the long-run, sex therapists say, because men hooked on a fast intense experience are at risk of erectile dysfunction in ordinary situations.
There are other dangers, too. One man, a frequent sex tourist, was partaking of the basest carnal activities on offer until several experiences burst the illusion that “girls” were volunteering and enjoyed it. In this new mirror, he saw he had become callous and inhuman in his part of a vast sex industry that caused devastation. His crisis of conscience tortures him, but he can’t share with anyone close, because, if they knew . . .
A Scottish report found that the greatest deterrent was public shaming – more than arrest or even a jail sentence. Does this not show they feel they are doing something wrong? Criminalising the buyers of sex, some of them say casually, would stop them from using prostitutes – but they don’t see it as a problem. It just doesn’t seem to matter that much to them, and isn’t that a telling point? This sort of sex is seen as dispensable, and consequently, so is the humanity of everyone involved in the transaction.
First published:Tue, Nov 11, 2014, 08:06
ACitizen
To be crystal clear, should my daughter decide to become a sex worker I would be assuaged by a myriad spectrum of thoughts and emotions. BUT, I would be outraged if she was not, or did not feel able, to report an assault or crime against her to the Gardai. Such is a reflection on society as calloused, uncaring and bigoted.
4 hours ago
1 Like
Johny2joe
@ACitizen
Re: sex worker
Why dont you just say prositute
3 hours ago
0 Likes
Johny2joe
@Johny2joe
Because youtre bullshiking youte self
3 hours ago
0 Likes
Johny2joe
@Johny2joe
assuaged by a myriad spectrum of thoughts and emotions.
You'd want to go and fttk her is what youe saying. Go annd talk to someone
3 hours ago
0 Likes
Johny2joe
@Johny2joe
And Im sorry about the blunt language
3 hours ago
0 Likes
Johny2joe
@Johny2joe
But either way you need to talk to someone
3 hours ago
0 Likes
GayeDalton
@Johny2joe Probably out of good manners and consideration for the ladies in the sex industry who find the word "prostitute" as insulting as you would find...several words that I see no urgent need to type in IT comments.
3 hours ago
0 Likes
Johny2joe
@GayeDalton
I'm sorry. I'm drunk. Or stoned. I forget which.
2 hours ago
0 Likes
Johny2joe
@GayeDalton
RE; Good manners and Ladies.
There's no good ladies. Only various sorts of piranha. Some nicer than others. Which doesnt mean you should be rude only careful.
Or thats been my experience. Anyway.
2 hours ago
0 Likes
Johny2joe
@GayeDalton
I find no words insulting. Gaye. but if you want to talk fine. i'm a dizzy-lectic physoc what yah call it. So talk. Plus I hate arsenal. And I smoke big time dope.
2 hours ago
0 Likes
Johny2joe
@Johny2joe
And in two nminutes i'm clocking out to drink a half bottle of scotch.
2 hours ago
0 Likes
PaulDowling
Does anyone know the real difference between Irish Politicians judges and lawmakers and lady's of the night ??? The difference is that the lady's of the night actually kiss you after taking your money . Lady's of the night should be unionized and given the same rights as the public employees they are
4 hours ago
2 Likes
Dessie.Deratta
"degrade and dehumanise the buyers of sex"
What a bizarre psycho-babble notions!
"de-humanise"?!
This is 24 carat s*it...
4 hours ago
4 Likes
ACitizen
I challenge Kate Holmquist to scrub her mind clear of her worldview and all that she thinks she knows about sex work to address the issue of abuse. In the past year the incidence of crime against sex workers in the Republic of Ireland increased by 15% to 452 recorded incidents, ranging from biting to rape.
Only 3% of the recorded incidents were reported to the Gardai.
To me, it is shameful and loathsome to see such abuse of my fellow human beings. And I find it absurd to watch and listen to the... » more
4 hours ago
1 Like
ConcernedCitizen
Last year a close friend went on holidays to Spain with his buddy. After too much drink on their first night they went to the Pharmacy for some Paracetamol.
Later that evening they were drinking in a bar when the very young and attractive Pharmacist and her equally attractive friend coincidentally arrived in the same bar.
They offered to buy the girls a drink and sat down to chat. It wasn't long before the girls put their cards on the table. They invited my friend and his buddy back to their... » more
4 hours ago
2 Likes
patrickodowd
Finally,
There is a knee jerk tendency to characterise men who avail of the services of sex workers as monstrous or irresponsible. Some unfortunately are, but many are not and only wish to engage in consenting mutually agreeable sexual activity with other adults. Many men would if they were encouraged, willingly report abuses but don’t because of fears of stigmatisation, and criminalisation.
Not long ago I saw a report on BBC News of a brothel with trafficked women being busted because a... » more
4 hours ago
2 Likes
Johny2joe
@patrickodowd
I'm endorsing only your first comment the rest is just waffle and rather easy to justify.
But heres my question. Why are men always so worried by what women feel. Is it guilt. Probably. Men. Are anyway bastards when it comes too women. And we should just stop doing that. And it doesnt matter if shes a *** or your sister. We should just stop doing that. Mostly they like us. Give women a break thats what I say. And dont forget say no to the war on drugs.
3 hours ago
0 Likes
patrickodowd
Continued.
Thirdly. Rape is a horrific crime that is not unique to sex work. Sex Work does not equate to rape if there is consent between the sex worker and client, it is rape when there isn’t. A sex worker must be free to decline business as they wish. The prevalence of rape will be greater when the sex worker is unable to work in a safe place where they can make arrangements for security and assistance. Rape may go unreported by sex workers for fear of they themselves being punished for... » more
4 hours ago
1 Like
ACitizen
@patrickodowd Agreed!
4 hours ago
0 Likes
patrickodowd
Re your question – “I wonder how many of the commenters are basing their views on their fantasy of what prostitution involves, rather than on the realities of trafficking, organised crime, rape, control via drug addiction and commercial child sex abuse.”
Most men are fully aware of the realities of sex work involves and most commenting see a failure to face up to the continual ineffectiveness of laws enacted by people who approach it with your mentality. These laws have done very little to... » more
4 hours ago
2 Likes
Johny2joe
Although its way to long
4 hours ago
0 Likes
Johny2joe
@Johny2joe
or even too long
4 hours ago
0 Likes
Circumstantial
Great to see Kate taking part in the comment section. I have never seen that before. Really admirable, especially on such a divisive topic.
I totally disagree on the use of shame as a weapon in our society, especially around what we choose to do with our bodies (provided it is a choice). It strikes me as a throw back to 'fallen women' and the Magdelene Laundries.
I find it extremely ironic that the driving force behind this 'criminalise the punter law' is an organisation set up by the Good... » more
5 hours ago
1 Like
CharlieMartel
''would you tell your fiancée or your mother that you’ve paid for sex; would you want your mother, sister or daughter to sell their bodies; and would you consider dating a prostitute and marrying her? The answer has always been no, no and no. See the disconnect?''
Not disconnect, the word is Shame, the word disconnect is is just another euphemism.
And sure words 'shame' and 'fornication ' don't feature in forums like this for secular grownups.
Since the beginning of time, prostitution has always demeaned, degraded and dehumanised those involved.
And now it is part of the slave trade 2014 style
Denial of this truth changes nothing.
A pity but there you go.
« less
5 hours ago
0 Likes
GayeDalton
I have a serious problem with this:
"I’ve asked punters the same three questions: would you tell your fiancée or your mother that you’ve paid for sex; would you want your mother, sister or daughter to sell their bodies; and would you consider dating a prostitute and marrying her? The answer has always been no, no and no. See the disconnect?"
It is a completely invalid argument:
would you tell your fiancée or your mother that you’ve paid bought good made in a sweatshop; would you want your... » more
5 hours ago
2 Likes
KateHolmquist
The Scottish survey found that most of the 100 sex buyers interviewed were in sexual relationships, including marriage, so could have sex without having to pay for it. Paying for sex was a different experience for them with a completely different dynamic.
6 hours ago
0 Likes
Johny2joe
@Johny2joe
And she hit that sucker right in the middle of his windscreen.
5 hours ago
0 Likes
PaulCarr
@KateHolmquist How so? Maybe his wife refuses to have sex with him but he stays in the relationship for the sake of the children.
1 hour ago
0 Likes
RobertSmith
''I’ve asked punters the same three questions: would you tell your fiancée or your mother that you’ve paid for sex; would you want your mother, sister or daughter to sell their bodies; and would you consider dating a prostitute and marrying her? The answer has always been no, no and no.''
Interesting. I'm a buyer of sexual services and my answers would be 'yes, yes, physically impossible and yes.' If a man has a fiancee and is buying sexual services, then there is a serious problem in the... » more
6 hours ago
2 Likes
RobertSmith
@KateHolmquist I'm sure you would Kate. And given your completely unbiased and balanced agenda I'm sure they'd love to talk to you as well.
5 hours ago
2 Likes
RobertSmith
@KateHolmquist Any thoughts on your definition of trafficking, the numbers of children trafficked for Irish prostitution or the notion of ''selling bodies'' yet?
5 hours ago
2 Likes
GayeDalton
@KateHolmquist Now I am going to turn this around on you by telling you a story...a true story.
A few years ago I met a young man half my age. I found him mesmerizing, and I don't think it was entirely one way...there was a chemistry between us, like a perfect waltz...but...you may recall, I am autistic, building relationships of any kind with people I actually want is too stressful and fraught to be viable...but even if I could have got past that, what for?
To take a young man who had never... » more
7 hours ago
3 Likes
JamieSaris
The debate on this issue in IT is becoming increasingly disturbing. Kate Holmquist has critiqued men buying sex in terms that are eerily reminiscent of earlier church-inspired attacks on "homosexual activity" and other stigmatized sexual behavior. Be careful (say unspecified "sex therapists" rather than a celibate clergy): it'll wreck you for your "proper sexual function" and "your *** won't work right when you need it to". Really? We have peer-reviewed studies proving this? If so, I await with... » more
8 hours ago
7 Likes
PaulCarr
@JamieSaris I think it is feminists who are the key driving force behind the anti adult sex work campaign in the Republic of Ireland. Both the CEOs of Ruhama and the Immigrant Council of Ireland, Sarah Benson and Denise Charlton, used to work for Women's Aid. The National Women's Council of Ireland describes itself as a feminist organization and is a key partner of the TORL campaign.
Key pro decriminalization of sex work campaigners in the Republic of Ireland are however afraid to ruffle the... » more
1 hour ago
0 Likes
GayeDalton
Unlike abolitionists the sex buyer goes to the sex worker and asks one important question:
"What do you want from me?"
...and then he abides by her answer.
8 hours ago
2 Likes
JimDoyle
" A Scottish report found that the greatest deterrent was public shaming" This is a throwback to puritan times - it really has to be underpinned by the idea that sex is dirty. If anything even remotely like this was suggested as a means of discouraging abortions, there would be the most hideous howls of outrage ! And I think it would be pretty safe to say Katie would be prominent amongst those leading the protest. Why don't we just follow the logic of this and erect public pillories in our towns... » more
8 hours ago
4 Likes
Johny2joe
@JimDoyle
Re; Public shaming ... if anything remotely like this was suggested as a means of discouraging abortions etc
Man. Thats even more screwed up than the original article.
8 hours ago
1 Like
Johny2joe
@Johny2joe
Or that might just be me smoking dope again.
8 hours ago
0 Likes
KateHolmquist
I wonder how many of the commenters are basing their views on their fantasy of what prostitution involves, rather than on the realities of trafficking, organised crime, rape, control via drug addiction and commercial child sex abuse. .
8 hours ago
0 Likes
Johny2joe
@Johny2joe
I meant just be kind and women will be nice. And thats the way it works. Mostly.
3 hours ago
0 Likes
GayeDalton
@KateHolmquist To be honest in my extensive investigation and experience "trafficking, organised crime, rape, control via drug addiction and commercial child sex abuse" are far more likely to occur in the context of HSE care than sex work.
I will not offer to meet you and explain again, last time I did you had no interest in meeting me unless you could turn it into a sensationalist double spread with open face... » more
3 hours ago
0 Likes
ConcernedCitizen
@KateHolmquist Not many likes for your reponses. Guess only male misogynists who pay for sex posting on here.
9 hours ago
2 Likes
Popper
So, all sex between men and women - other than between a prostitute and her client - is "meaningful" and involves a "relationship".
You should get out more often (preferably on Saturday night)
9 hours ago
12 Likes
JimDoyle
@Popper Have to admit the first time I saw a woman urinating on a public street, I was shocked but not so much now - times change, things change.
8 hours ago
1 Like
liathfail
@Popper as a matter of curiosity, are you the fellow student who introduced an IPA class to Popper some 30 odd years ago? I'd never heard of him before....
7 hours ago
0 Likes
ConcernedCitizen
@JimDoyle That's a bit of a turn on.
5 hours ago
1 Like
Dessie.Deratta
@ConcernedCitizen
"all sex between men and women - other than between a prostitute and her client - is "meaningful" and involves a "relationship".
Lmfao!
As a "sexpert" and (former) late night gigolo supreme, I can assure you that is the most uninformed gibberish ever written.
Jaysus, I wish I was young again!
4 hours ago
1 Like
GayeDalton
@Dessie.Deratta Before I was a sex worker I was pretty gullible on a saturday night, and, to be very honest I found the one night stands incredibly degrading and demoralising. I never felt that way about my clients. We were honest, they got what they wanted, I got what I wanted...nobody was used.
3 hours ago
0 Likes
Johny2joe
R: Women and faking it.
Men can't tell when women are acting. Jeez there's a revelation. Even the women you love don't want you to know when they're faking it. And they dont want you to act like you know either. Thats part of the contract all women make with all men. Or at least hetro men and women. And I'd be surprised if a similar dynamic doesn't operate in LGBT relationships as well. John Lennon said it best. - Whatever gets you through the nite. Is alright. So. Grow up. Stop worrying about... » more
9 hours ago
3 Likes
ConcernedCitizen
Nothing to say about male prostitution kate? Or is it only demeaning when the seller is a woman?
9 hours ago
6 Likes
Tommy
Just another feminazi campaign to demonize men.
9 hours ago
7 Likes
comeonyegreens.com
Kate, I would have no problem comparing postitution to any other profession. Personally, I think it provides an essential service and should be legalised and run properly. My only grievance with your article is that you make the assumption that prostitutes do not enjoy sex with their clients. It's too sweeping a statement and I think the general reaction from some of your online readers bears out my point. Again, I would ask you, does the idea of a total stranger stimulating a woman to the point... » more
9 hours ago
2 Likes
GayeDalton
@comeonyegreens.com The idea of a total stranger stimulating a woman to the point of an orgasm doesn't lie easy with me either...BUT...I know it is none of my business to determine how other people should feel about that in their own lives.
3 hours ago
0 Likes
BrianClarke
Research & Surveys are no substitute for experience. Mature adults realize that sex is for two purposes, procreation or fun and in this instance fun, that is not to be taken seriously. All activity, of more than one person, involves role play to a lesser or greater degree. I have used business ladies all over western Europe and Asia for decades and so has my wife and it cost us a fortune but we had a fantastic time. The business ladies also used us and it cost an absolute fortune but it was absolutely fantastic. Actually surveys conducted in Europe found, that this business legalized, actually lowered domestic violence considerably.
In both Canada and Europe, after proper research, they found that the business women involved, felt much safer when it was legalized and conducted in a transparent manner. Like certain militant feminists, yes there is a certain percentage of men, who have sadistic traits but so have women too. I'm sure the article must have some valid points but I can't find them, and using modern pseudo, pretentious terms, like misogynistic, neither makes it an intelligent article or anything remotely related, to the real world of this ancient profession. Rock on! Sisters of Mercy! Long may your business thrive and to hell with the begrudgers, fascists and puritans. Marriage as most people will agree is also to a large extent a business with the same dynamics. Get out there and live lady and get some real experience, before you start interfering in this ancient art form and business! The article is a good example, of a little knowledge, being a very dangerous thing, that tries to sanitize the gift, of the often messy human condition and the wonderful gift of Life.
9 hours ago
6 Likes
JimDoyle
The Swedish model ...how often have we heard that term ? As if sweden were a role model for behaviour towards women that the whole world should admire and emulate. And yet Sweden's suicide rate for females is twice that as Ireland's rate for females - Ireland has a particularily low suicide rate for women even by international comparison. Should Sweden be asking if it can emulate the Irish model as regards female suicide ?
10 hours ago
3 Likes
GayeDalton
@JimDoyle Now that is a scary stat because I first noticed the correlation between the number of women who sell sex and the *disparity* between male and female suicide in Ireland in the same age groups a long time ago.
6 hours ago
1 Like
liathfail
I have never 'paid' for sex, but I think that this article is dishonest, slanted and unhelpful (totally) to any honest consideration of sexual relationships. That being said, there are certainly men who have a similar contempt for the female half of society as Kathy has for the male. Sickening.
10 hours ago
5 Likes
Johny2joe
@liathfail
Re: Never paid for sex
O. Yes. You did. Cause everybody pays. Some only pay with dollars and cash. Others a kiss. But either way somebody picks up the tap and somebody else leaves with a tip.
8 hours ago
2 Likes
Johny2joe
@Johny2joe
Actually on reflection the last two lines should be reversed ie.
Either way somebody leaves with a tip and somebody else picks up the the tab.
Or maybe not. I'm undecided.
7 hours ago
0 Likes
liathfail
@Johny2joe That's why I wrote 'paid' in inverted commas. Maybe you read too fast. My apologies to the author for getting her name wrong. I read too fast also!
7 hours ago
1 Like
Johny2joe
@liathfail
Well. I'm dizzy-lectic too. Though smoking dope and drinking whisky helps to slow down my reading. So. Yes. I saw the commas. But I liked your idea. Everybody pays ...
7 hours ago
0 Likes
ConcernedCitizen
@Johny2joe I've never had sex that I didn't pay for in one way or another, and the woman I married was the most expensive.
5 hours ago
1 Like
Johny2joe
@ConcernedCitizen
Paid for sex is actually just as loving as any form of other human intercourse. It just depends on what you take and what you give.
4 hours ago
0 Likes
patrickodowd
It may be that the men who are willing to talk to you about frequenting sex workers are the confident ones who believe in their own prowess. You have no way of knowing how representative they are. The women themselves say that there are nice ones and nightmares.
The stigma attached to frequenting sex-workers is hardly less than being one, and very very few men are open about it. Plus men are always expected to perform and "not being able to get it up" is something most men will keep to... » more
10 hours ago
4 Likes
comeonyegreens.com
Kate, my view is that a prostitue does this to make money. It's her idea of work. Basically, she's doing the same thing as you do in the Irish Times, putting bread on the table for her family. We know that working in the IT is not all roses but I bet you don't hate it all the time. I'm sure, just like prostitution, it has its enjoyable moments. Not all of the punters, as you call them, are monsters.
10 hours ago
7 Likes
KateHolmquist
@comeonyegreens.com If a man had written this column, would you be comparing the dynamics of his work to prostitution? Just a thought.
10 hours ago
1 Like
ConcernedCitizen
@KateHolmquist Why wouldn't he? Relax. He's not comparing your job to prostitution.Misandry?
9 hours ago
3 Likes
JimDoyle
@KateHolmquist If a man wrote it, I woul dask him if in the case of male to male sex for sale,is he really saying that only one man will be criminalised ? But this type of sex for sale appears to be the ' Sex for sale that dare not breathe its name' !
8 hours ago
2 Likes
TOOMUCHNOISE
@ConcernedCitizen You need to read posts properly and make sure you understood them before rushing to the keyboard. "......would you be comparing the dynamics of his work........." is what the writer actually said.
8 hours ago
0 Likes
ConcernedCitizen
@TOOMUCHNOISE I understood. The the same analogy is equally valid if the author was male.
5 hours ago
1 Like
GayeDalton
@KateHolmquist I would compare the dynamics of any man's work to sex work, and I often have - I think (because my father was a mining engineer who hated the pits) I may have originated the comparison with coal mining, and there are even superstitions that forbid a woman in the pit.
@comeonyegreens.com I think that is a remarkably sensitive post - the only part I would contest is that "journalist" is one of those "dream jobs" people aspire to and only the very lucky few ever get, the rest of us... » more
3 hours ago
0 Likes
Johny2joe
@KateHolmquist
Not much of a thought. Actually,
3 hours ago
0 Likes
Johny2joe
@GayeDalton
O. fuvk off. Would you and think again.
3 hours ago
0 Likes
Dublin-Living
Many jobs are humiliating and demeaning, maybe more so than selling sex. This narrow, black & white view of what certain people think other people should be allowed to do consensually is deeply conservative and authoritarian, ironically. What comes across in these articles is a certain distaste for other people's sexuality, a neo-puritanism if you like. Again, it's quite ironic how judgemental these attitudes are. It's hard not to see it as deeply anti-men to selectively criminalise... » more
10 hours ago
2 Likes
KieranMcGrath
Interesting article, Kate. I note that there are references in some comments to the importance of taking on board the views of "sex workers". This latter term is one that Rachel Moran, author of 'Paid For - My Journey through Prostitution', would claim is a misnomer; as selling sex is not like being a waitress or any other kind of ordinary work. It is true that those with direct experience of working in prostitution see it differently from those who haven't. The point can be made, though, that... » more
10 hours ago
0 Likes
KateHolmquist
@KieranMcGrath I think that it's important to have an honest, open discussion about how "sex work" affects all parties in the transaction, not just women. By writing this opinion piece, I was trying to introduce a discussion about men's participation and how it affects them. This is very rarely talked about.
10 hours ago
0 Likes
ConcernedCitizen
@KateHolmquist Well if that was your sole intention, then we're talking about it now.
9 hours ago
2 Likes
GayeDalton
@KieranMcGrath I think you should probably place a higher priority on what real former sex workers have to say
http://maggiemcneill.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/gaye-dalton-affidavit.pdf
I am out of sex work a long time.
6 hours ago
1 Like
GayeDalton
@KieranMcGrath Also as a very genuine and truthful former sex worker I am happy to come and talk to you any time you like for as long as you like, let me know? mechanima gmail
6 hours ago
1 Like
jennyoBrien
@KieranMcGrath lol - false consciousness argument. Sounds like the abortion debate all over again and "abortion-regret".
I will have to live with these laws when they're brought in so I will just work around them, where I will mostly be trying to keep the punter safe rather than myself because they're my means to pay my rent.
5 hours ago
2 Likes
GayeDalton
@jennyoBrien What I have to say to the "false consciousness" argument is that I was quite sure I hated sex work even while I was doing it...BUT...I was also quite sure that any form of criminalisation was a constant source of informed dread. Because it would make sex work even harder for me than it already was. They hadn't dreamed up anything as nasty as the "Swedish Model" then, but if they had it would have been the LAST thing I needed, driving away the clients I needed to survive...
That is... » more
3 hours ago
0 Likes
ConcernedCitizen
"Paying for sex allows men to live the fantasy that some women – women who they pay – get hot when they meet misogynists who can’t be bothered doing the hard psychological work of forming an equal, intimate relationship with a woman – at least not tonight."
Sounds like you're suggesting that sex is only acceptable after " the hard psychological work of forming an equal, intimate relationship with a woman." Never have a one-night stand Kate?.
10 hours ago
2 Likes
colmgillis
Prostitution for men is all about domination. Many of the men who use prostitutes could easily get women without applying a crude method of paying for it. Why do they do it, so? They love the power it gives them. They can get women to do anything they want. They can humiliate and control women in a way that would be impossible if they had to go through the hoops of making promises and applying charm. That is why it is erroneous to say that marriage is a form of male domination. It is the exact... » more
11 hours ago
1 Like
KateHolmquist
@colmgillis Well said. And I'm glad a man is saying it!
11 hours ago
0 Likes
patrickodowd
@KateHolmquist - You obviously are unaware of his reactionary comments on LGBT marriage and religion etc. He's absolutely the last person who's able to speak for other men.
10 hours ago
3 Likes
JimDoyle
@KateHolmquist Kate you are not a naive person so how can you are with with Clom about his simplistic domination theory ?? Frankly many men go to ladies for paid sex and are seeking a bit of physical intimacy and comfort and are willing to pay for it.Colm's idea doesnt even make sense given we know there are men who pay to be passive victims in S & M scenarios.
Frankly some men are, whether they realise it or not, acting out psychological scenarios ad infinitium. Some men are addicted in a... » more
10 hours ago
4 Likes
ConcernedCitizen
@KateHolmquist You obviously haven't read any of Colm's many other posts on various topics in the IT.
9 hours ago
2 Likes
ACitizen
@KateHolmquist Colmgillis wrote about sex workers in the comments to Fionola Meridith's article of 29th Oct. "For the latter two types of women, there should be no leniency shown and they should be locked up the same as sexual predators, because they are corrupting society. Its for their own benefit and for the benefit of the common good."
He also wrote: "These are not 'sex workers'; they are someone's daughter who has fallen into the disgrace of prostitution."
He wants to lock them up in... » more
7 hours ago
3 Likes
jennyoBrien
@colmgillis
Go away. I am someone's daughter and I have been more humilated and degraded in a waitressing jobs than in the sex industry. Plenty of my clients know that I have a family and parents heck I talked to them about my Christmas plans so go away with your silliness and lack of knowledge on this industry.
Rape is where it becomes power. I turn clients away for lots of reasons even women in the street are picky who they are safe. Criminalising street work means both sides are too... » more
5 hours ago
1 Like
PeterSchafer
Another false illusion that you seem to operate under in your desire to view commercial sex in the basest way possible is the idea that it's not possible that there be rapport and enjoyment in spending time together for both parties, like how I enjoy my job at times. Sex workers are not interchangeable for clients. There is the common phenomenon of "regulars". I know this flies in the face of the vulgar caricature that many like to believe about clients, that any hole will do, but it's a fact... » more
11 hours ago
5 Likes
Maximillion
Like everything in this world, society should decriminalise all unsavory perconal behaviour, and regulate, regulate, regulate. All the lefty wishful thinking in the world has and never will change the ingrained human condition, unless we start brainwashing or reprogramming DNA. This is just a case of denial. A righteous notion that will have negative real world consequences. Thanks Kate, by the way your column about peoples problems is also very female oriented. Not at all concerned about the... » more
11 hours ago
4 Likes
KateCurvaceous
How can you possibly speak on behalf of Sex Workers unless you have done it yourself? As a sex worker I can promise you that my body reacts to touch and when I am stimulated in the right way I have a lot of fun and DO orgasm when working. Stop making things up to serve your purpose. I find all this deception degrading, where people try to make out they know the truth, when they have no way of actually knowing. I really resent people telling me what how I feel and my job is like, when they... » more
11 hours ago
8 Likes
KateHolmquist
@KateCurvaceous Do you think you're exceptional? You seem to be completely in control of your clients.
10 hours ago
1 Like
GayeDalton
@KateHolmquist She is not exceptional, I was always in complete control of my clients too, in very different terms.
I wanted to reserve my sexual responses for private use and would have found any arousal on my part at work alarming and inappropriate. My clients were told this and accepted it as they were expected to. I could not, personally, keep a straight face while faking it, my clients were also told this and accepted it too.
I did not resent my clients paying me for sexual release in the... » more
8 hours ago
3 Likes
HopeHope
@GayeDalton
what do you look for on their CV..
6 hours ago
0 Likes
ConcernedCitizen
@KateHolmquist Maybe she provides Dominatrix services.
5 hours ago
1 Like
GayeDalton
@HopeHope Not quite sure what you are asking?
3 hours ago
0 Likes
DavidS
Generally speaking, articles written by women on sex that appear to criticise men, however valid, seem to engender a furious response.
Paying for sex remains a male issue (there may be the occasional paying female fruitcake involved) and only if you inhabit a netherworld will you feel anything but shame and ultimately a level of debasement for your actions (thinking about sinning is apparently a sin).
There's probably few men that exist that, following domestic strife or other emotional... » more
11 hours ago
4 Likes
RonaldvanNeukelen
@KateHolmquist
You're not criticising men Kate?
So what gives with the seemingly blanket assertion that men who purchase sex hate women?
'Paying for sex allows men to live the fantasy that some women – women who they pay – get hot when they meet misogynists who can’t be bothered doing the hard psychological work of forming an equal, intimate relationship with a woman – at least not tonight'.
8 hours ago
2 Likes
ConcernedCitizen
@TOOMUCHNOISE She suggested that men who pay for sex should feel degraded.
5 hours ago
1 Like
niallbyrne
Many men and women sleep with total strangers without getting to know anything about them and with no intention of ever seeing them again. Is this misogyny too? Or misandry for that matter?
The levels of hysteria around this debate are growing. Obviously there is a lot of fear around prostitution, and that fear isn't really about exploitation or misogyny at all but the fact that many women feel their relationships are threatened by prostitutes. It is, as usual, driven by self interest more... » more
11 hours ago
10 Likes
KateHolmquist
@KateCurvaceous Nevada has legalised prostitution and Las Vegas has one of the highest rape rates in the US. Sweden's rape incidence declined by 5 per cent last year. Sweden's legal definition of rape is very wide and authorities actively encourage reporting, so it's difficult to compare countries.
10 hours ago
2 Likes
KateCurvaceous
@KateHolmquist It had increased by 58% in Sweden over the 10 years the law changed, so 5% is not really that significant. It is a result of the law as it stands in Sweden. This is why it is relevant to Ireland, as Ireland is looking at adopting this law.
10 hours ago
4 Likes
le
@KateHolmquist Sweden for all its more advanced social policies than Ireland has a higher suicide rate than Ireland. But more importantly Swedens suicide rate per head of population for females is almost twice Irelands very low rate. So clearly Sweden isnt quite the nirvana females that it tends to be represented.
10 hours ago
4 Likes
ConcernedCitizen
@KateHolmquist So are you saying that legalised prostitution increases rapes? And prosecution of sex workers clients reduces rapes?
9 hours ago
2 Likes
PeterSchafer
@KateHolmquist A few points of information: prostitution is legal in only a few rural counties in Nevada and not in Las Vegas; Las Vegas crime rates are inflated because of the tremendous number of tourists who are often crime victims but are not counted in the denominator in calculating rates; Las Vegas isn't in the top 10 of cities with the highest rape rates, those being
7 hours ago
2 Likes
PeterSchafer
@PeterSchafer
Saginaw, MI
Anchorage, AK
Fairbanks, AK
Springfield, IL
Redding, CA
Flint, MI
Pine Bluff, AR
Lawton, OK
Battle Creek, MI
Memphis, TN
7 hours ago
1 Like
ACitizen
@KateHolmquist Only some 3% of crimes against sex workers in Ireland are reported. Same in Sweden?
7 hours ago
1 Like
HopeHope
@ACitizen
its the tax scam that I think is immoral....they dont pay tax on their earnings...
6 hours ago
0 Likes
jennyoBrien
@ACitizen Worse in Sweden and Norway, who also introduced the law. The Norwegian government admitted in their report on the law that sex workers reported crimes a lot less.
5 hours ago
1 Like
PaulCarr
@KateHolmquist Actually Nevada has not. The big cities of Las Vegas, Reno and Carson city ban all adult sex work. Some remote rural counties of Nevada, which constitute about 10% of the population of Nevada as a whole, permit legalized brothels where sex workers are subject to regular blood checks, curfews, isolation from friends and family for months at a time. It's more like an army bootcamp. No serious campaigner for sex work decriminalization considers the Nevada model worthy of even cursory consideration. Check out the New Zealand model of decriminalization, Kate. I wrote a blog update on it a few months ago on my blog athttp://paulcarr.wordpress.com. Search for my 20 point plan.« less
2 hours ago
0 Likes
ConcernedCitizen
Prostitution is the oldest trade in history. Where there is a demand for something, there is a market. Not all sex workers are in it through coercion. And I would question the intellect of your 20 male friends who all thought the woman was doing it for any reason other than money. Or do they all have inflated opinions of themselves. Kathryn, you are sounding a bit like Breda O Brien.
11 hours ago
4 Likes
richardbarrett
This is a thoughtful and well informed article which shows up the ignorant nonsense which has recently been peddled on discussion boards by supporters of the prostitution industry. The move to criminalise the use of prostitutes is not an assault on sexual freedom by an alliance of feminists and religious zealots. It is a practical response to what is really going on out there. Well done, Kate.
12 hours ago
3 Likes
RobertSmith
@richardbarrett Richard have you considered talking to sex workers & asking them if they want to have their customers criminialised? Or is it better to trust Kate's one-sided argument and listen to the views of NGOs who stand to make a lot of money via their supposed moral crusade? And why was the same proposal dismissed out of hand in Westminster just last week?
6 hours ago
4 Likes
PaulCarr
@richardbarrett is this Richard Boyd Barrett of Dáil Éireann fame?
20 minutes ago
0 Likes
MickHannigan
In the debate about sex-work, a constant is the stigmatising of sex workers, male and female. They are excluded from making a direct contribution, their voices go unheard. Organisations seeking the criminalisation of clients withdraw from panels at public meetings if sex-workers are also invited. Parallel to this is the stigmatizing of clients. Holmquist reports that "the greatest deterrent" to purchasing sex is public shaming" and asks "Does this not show they feel they are doing something... » more
12 hours ago
8 Likes
GayeDalton
@MickHannigan That is SO TRUE. The abolitionists will not face us under any circumstances.
Everyone connected to the sex industry hides their faces and names, it is true. Here are my reasons as explained to a journalist last year who was a little pushy about publishing my name and photograph:
http://mymythbuster.wordpress.com/myth-we-cannot-show-our-face-or-names-for-shame/
After seeing this, the journalist in question suddenly had "too bad a cold" to interview me.
2 hours ago
1 Like
comeonyegreens.com
Sounds like the idea of a prostitute enjoying sex with a punter is not a concept that lies easy with Kate Holmquist
12 hours ago
1 Like
HopeHope
@maryobrien
But mary obrien it is taxed...that's what all the ballyhoo was about slapping that bill on the UK recently...
6 hours ago
0 Likes
GayeDalton
@niallbyrne A lot of your questions are answered in the research commissioned by the Justice Committee in Stormont...http://www.dojni.gov.uk/index/publications/publication-categories/pubs-criminal-justice/prostitution-research-report-2014.pdf...except how much money sex workers make...I was always raised that it was rude to ask people that, and sex workers are people
2 hours ago
0 Likes
KMcC61
The one good point made here is that the Scottish report found that the greatest deterrent was public shaming... Maybe the Swedish/Nordic model doesn't have the great effect claimed for it in Scandinavia precisely because public shaming is not part of it? In Ireland, once someone appears in court, their name, age and often full address are all given in the media - in Scandinavia that is totally unthinkable! What will appear in the Scndinavian media is a notice that 'a 37-year-old man' has been... » more
12 hours ago
0 Likes
Maximillion
@KMcC61 so now you advocate public shaming for having paid money for sex, consensually.... is the world gone mad? pimping and slavery for sex needs to be eradicated, as does trafficing and enslaving people for all other sorts of economic needs... but the industry, the voluntary one, which is an equally significant part of it all, needs to be regulated and protected even. personal distaste doesnt come into this. It annoys me, this stupid word "misogynist" for anything and everything to do with... » more
12 hours ago
4 Likes
KateHolmquist
@KMcC61 And your point is taken too.
12 hours ago
0 Likes
KateCurvaceous
@KMcC61 Is that really a reasonable reaction for two consenting people having sex? How does that help trafficked women?
11 hours ago
6 Likes
KMcC61
@Maximillion
Advocating shaming people for buying sex? No - I'm mostly pointing out that the Swedish/Nordic Model that seems to be much vaunted and about to spread around the world doesn't work in Scandinavia. (I've pointed out in other comments that Scandinavian prostitutes' organisations are opposed to these laws because they have made life more difficult and dangerous for the women and men sex workers. In Ireland, public shaming occurs for ALL criminal offences, from shoplifting and... » more
9 hours ago
1 Like
KMcC61
@KateCurvaceous
It doesn't help trafficked women at all - that's why the Swedish/Nordic Model is seriously flawed - and I'm citing Norwegian prostitute leaders there.
9 hours ago
0 Likes
jennyoBrien
Stupid article. I don't sell my body I sell a service. Do you think every waitress gives 2 shits about the people she serves. Probably not, but they're her income and she's happy to give them the illusion that she's enjoying the time she'a serving them.
Also I find it degrading that people talk about selling my body - it's misogynistic. It implies that my body as a a female is defined by it's sexual aspect. My body does a lot more than has sex. I went for a swim an hour ago, which body also... » more
12 hours ago
11 Likes
jennyoBrien
@KateHolmquist I am selling a service, an experience. My body is still mine at the end of the day. I decide what to do with it and like another commenter said that's organ selling if I was selling my body.
I am not saying it's nothing to aspire to, but I am replying to the fact the conclusion of your article is to criminalise the buyer to prevent people going into the job because it's degrading and giving assumptions how people feel during their work.
I worked as a waitress and in a bar. My... » more
6 hours ago
2 Likes
ConcernedCitizen
@HopeHope Indeed it is. She's providing a service. The client has use of her body for an agreed time, for an agreed fee. If Hertz rent a car to a customer, it doesn't mean they've sold it to the customer.
4 hours ago
1 Like
JimDoyle
" Paying for sex allows men to live the fantasy that some women – women who they pay – get hot when they meet misogynists who can’t be bothered doing the hard psychological work of forming an equal, intimate relationship with a woman – at least not tonight." Well Katie, on the few occasions I have been propositioned by married women or women who have known I had a partner, I didnt ask myself if they just couldnt be bothered doing the hard psychological work of forming an equal intimate... » more
12 hours ago
9 Likes
KateHolmquist
@JimDoyle We're talking abot paid sex here, Jim, presumably the women who propositioned you found you irresistible
12 hours ago
3 Likes
KateCurvaceous
@KateHolmquist Is it not possible that a paid woman could also find him desirable, or does he turn into some kind of ogre then?
11 hours ago
3 Likes
ConcernedCitizen
@KateHolmquist Many Asian sex workers are horrified when they hear that men pick up non-working women in bars for one night stands in the West. They say "that's very bad, why she do for free with somebody she don't know".
10 hours ago
3 Likes
maryobrien
@KateHolmquist
You could at least dignify the women not not using the term 'prostitutes to define them. They are women, who sell sex, just as the men are 'sex buyers'.
It is up to men themselves to judge for themselves to judge their level of 'degradation'. No disrespect, I don't think your musings will have much input into that.
10 hours ago
4 Likes
JimDoyle
@KateHolmquist Thanks for reply - it is rare to see authors of articles reply to posst, so good for you. As for being irresistible, I am sure if I had left the pubor .building, another equally irresistible male would have sufficed. The point is much casual sexual contact is impulsive and and particularly that after a few drinks. And this applies to paid for sex as well. And if there is exploitation, then there must be mnay occasions when the woman is doing the exploitation. Lets be honest, many... » more
10 hours ago
3 Likes
niallbyrne
@JimDoyle
"And lets be honest, women actually have a vested interest in discouraging the availability of easy paid for sex. I cant say I have ever seen that being acknowledged."
This is pretty much it. This campaign is basically one group of "respectable" women running all the "loose" women out of the village in case they tempt their menfolk. But of course nowadays everyone has to seem sophisticated and liberal and confident in their relationship so they pretend they're doing it for the good... » more
9 hours ago
6 Likes
HopeHope
@KateCurvaceous
the driving force there is the money.
6 hours ago
0 Likes
HopeHope
@JimDoyle
indeed Jim Doyle...many men are exploited by women. women should stop this...most men end up with an empty bed and no trace of their wallet within a few hours.
6 hours ago
0 Likes
HopeHope
@ConcernedCitizen
many in the Favelas would be horrified too...its their bread and butter..
6 hours ago
0 Likes
GayeDalton
@HopeHope Yes, and there is the rub, as they say...because when you talk about sex work you are talking bout somebody's honest labour and livelihood. The stuff that pays their bills.
Sunday June 02, 2013 00:33
by Brian Clarke - AllVoices
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Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4'The UN team also slammed what they called “an escape clause” in the Criminal Justice Act (1988), which allows British officials to escape prosecution for inflicting severe pain or suffering if they can show that they had “lawful authority, justification or excuse” for doing so.'
'Another legal loophole the committee voiced concern about is the Intelligence Services Act (1994), which effectively insures that intelligence officers cannot be prosecuted within the UK once a warrant giving them lawful authority has been signed by a government minister.'
All of the above excerpts have come from the following www location:
http://rt.com/news/un-britain-human-rights-122/
(Published time: June 02, 2013 00:31)
Related Link:
"British Monarchy, UK Prime Minister David Cameron, government corruption, crime, cover-ups, and impunity ..."
http://tinyurl.com/maqoe4s
I believe Irish republican history is currently repeating itself, like previous fragmentation after the war of independence, into many in-effective factions, as happened with the British left recently, manipulated by outside forces. I received the following email today from the poster above, with a photographed Nazi salute.: "Any time, any place, any where Paddy... David Myatt 3:12 PM (3 hours ago)"
It is clear that Irish drug and gang wars are another element introduced into this history, manipulated by outside forces. The CIA and MI6 control 90% of the world drug trade, using places like Mexico and Ireland of brutal gang warfare, in the pretence of fighting drug traffickers but in reality trying to manage the lucrative drug trade, along with the native populations and communities.
Right wing Nazi groups like combat18world above, are used as their increment for cover and for their political dirty work, just like they used the Littlejohns., in the Irish free state, to criminalize and discredit anything remotely Irish republican. The solution is to remove this source of criminal gang funding by legalizing it but there are too many vested interests in the Irish policing and injustice system, hence it continues with the murder of journalists who highlight it.
The legalization of drugs is the only way to stop all of this bloodletting but it is being used as a form of social control of the Irish working class destroying whole communities, creating a culture of fear.in the interests of the establishment. Comrade Finnerty once again raises important points about Britain's rapidly deteriorating human rights record that reflects the increasing fascist ideology of Herr Myatt above. The internment of Julian Assange for one year now in London, despite being given diplomatice safe passage is more disgraceful British disregard for international standards of justice. A link below explains.
Fred, I'm afraid I have to resort to Wiki again to make my point about the necessity for creating another Republican congress, giving it a high profile transparent platform, to debate, justify and explain programmes of action and policy, with as much unity as possible to give proper leadership with a form of unity of the Green/Left in Ireland. It needs to be enabled by a neutral high profile that might even include our President O'Higgins. The unionists have been very successful in protecting their interests with a policy loose unity and 'keep your powder dry" for quite awhile now, we might learn something from them
"The Republican Congress (Irish: An Chomhdháil Phoblachtach) was an Irish republican political organisation founded in 1934, when left-wing republicans left the Irish Republican Army. The Congress was led by such IRA veterans as Peadar O'Donnell, Frank Ryan and George Gilmore. It was a socialist organisation and was dedicated to a "workers' republic" in Ireland. The group viewed the principles of Irish socialist republicanism as: "We believe that a republic of a united Ireland will never be achieved except through a struggle which uproots capitalism on its way."[1]
Two councillors were elected as Republican Congress candidates in Westmeath and Dundalk in 1934. At the Republican rally at Bodenstown in 1934, clashes occurred between Republican Congress supporters and IRA members. Congress supporters among the crowd of about 17,000 were estimated at between 600 and 2,000. The IRA leadership did not authorise banners other than its own and ordered the Congress banners to be seized. The clash was given a sectarian element by the attack on 36 Congress members from the predominantly Loyalist parts of West Belfast - they formed the Shankill Road branch - who carried a banner reading, "Unite Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter to break the connection with Capitalism".
Following moderate success in agitating on behalf of the workers the Congress split at its first annual conference held in Rathmines Town Hall on September 8-9, 1934. The split occurred mainly due to organisational disunity between two factions. One side believed that a united front of leftist republicans could challenge the dominance of the mainstream political parties and form a "republic". The opposing faction believed that a political party should be formed in order to fight for a "workers' republic". The former resolution was passed following support from O'Donnell and the Communist Party of Ireland (CPI). Those calling for a "workers' republic" withdrew their support and left the Congress. The group went into decline thereafter and was essentially defunct by 1936. The Congress had its last hurrah on the battlefields of the Spanish Civil War when a group of Irishmen fought for the Second Spanish Republic in the Connolly Column.
The collapse of the Republican Congress is representative of the failure of the inter-war Irish socialist republican movement. The inability to form an organisationally coherent group was ultimately the crippling shortcoming of socialist republicanism."